× Gamma Spectroscopy

Monitoring using spectrograms?

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5 days 17 hours ago #7192 by ChrisLX200
I had a thought that if stations could upload spectrograms every few hours of background readings then, should an incident occur, we could identify the nucleides resposible for an increased count. Gamma spectrometers are becoming increasingly more easily available at reasonable prices. Thoughts?

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5 days 16 hours ago #7196 by Simomax
This has been mentioned in the past, at least the uploading of gamma spectra. Having it automated poses several fundamental issues, such as:
  • I don't know of any gamma spectrometer that has the ability to automate spectrum uploads. If there were, and there may be, it would probably require either proprietary software to have the ability to submit them to Radmon, or a 3rd party software writing in order to facilitate this.
  • Radmon simply doesn't support this as is, and would require major back-end changes or additions.
  • I don't know of any gamma spectrometers that even submit basic readings to Radmon. The Radiacode 101 and 103 are not capable of this and only their own software.
  • Not all gamma spectrometers will output the data in the same format.
  • Gamma spectrometry is generally used for sampling sources where it can be left for hours/days. A small spike in background would be negligible on a gamma spectrum. - I have been running an experiment to detect radon progeny using the Radiacode 103. After three days of it sampling looking at the graphs showed hardly anything that was visible (except for K-40). I had to feed an AI with the xml file for it to detect the relevant isotopes, which it did, just about.
  • There is no timescale per se on a gamma spectrum, only the start time of the accumulation, and the length of time it runs for and thus results could only attributed between two points in time.
  • Gamma spectra would take up a lot of storage space if they were to be kept for a year or two. This would become a big issue if many people started doing this.
  • I don't think many people would actually partake in this as gamma spectrometers, although are getting cheaper, are still quite an investment for a hobbyist. $315 + tax (I got hit with ~$63 + admin import duties when I bought my Radiacode 103, so was ~$378 total). To spend this amount and leave it outside isn't something I would personally do.
  • The spectrometer, or at least the detector would have to be mounted outside. The CsI(Tl) detector of the Radiacode 10x is hygroscopic, meaning it would absorb moisture. The crystal is apparently hermetically sealed, and is fine for normal use, but placing in a high humidity environment would probably degrade it's performance over time. The Radiacode 10x is not recommended for long term outside use.
  • The detector would have to be open to the elements if detecting alpha radiation was a requirement.
And they are just the things I can think of from the top of my head. I'm sure there are more things that would have to be sorted in order for this to be a thing. If you have solutions for the above then I'd be happy to look at spending some days/weeks on writing the necessary back end code to incorporate this, but as it stand, it's not something I would be looking to do.

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5 days 12 hours ago #7199 by ChrisLX200
Good points. If it were to be done then clearly it would involve uploading of 6/12hr .xml files at maybe 50-100kB each, and generation of any informative overview graph done on the server. That, or just uploading an image. Quite an overhead I guess. At the user end the only automation available I can see would have to use scripts, although saving > xml can be automated the uploading can not except possibly (those I've looked at so far) from InterSpec. However InterSpec does not do capture from devices - it's just analysis software (and very good it is too)  . BecMoni does data capture from Radiacode devices but has no upload function.

Trying to tease out components of normal background is a very difficult task, like you I tried 24hr captures and just about recovered K40. However, the spectrum would mostly be useful in the event of a notable alert that covered the country and in such circumstance the readings would be much higher and nucleides like Cs137, Co60 etc (not normally seen) more easily identified.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply!


 
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5 days 12 hours ago #7200 by Simomax
No worries at all. Happy to help, where I can.

Try letting your Radiacode 103 sit for a few days. You may need to run it on a power supply, or PC. That should let you see K-40 properly. Also a good indication of whether it is still in calibration or not. I have a 101 and 103. The 101 got way out of calibration a bit ago. Not sure why, it may have been knocked or dropped, which apparently can knock them out of cal. I did manage to re-calibrate it, but it was out by a lot, so I bought the 103. I'm pretty sure they it says on their website, or in some documentation to let it sit for at least 3 days to identify K-40 properly. I have had some really nice spectra from leaving it days, even weeks depending on the source.

I actually use ChatGPT (paid version) for analysing the XML files. When it doesn't hiccup, or blow up, it can give some really details analytical data just from the XML spectrum. 

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5 days 7 hours ago #7201 by ChrisLX200
My new 103 was out of cal straight from the box and I still need to recalibrate it. I have a method outlined using 3 peaks generated by thorium (I have a vial of thorium dioxide which is very active) and the BeqMoni software mentioned earlier. Just have to get a decent spectrogram and it will calculate the correct offset and write directly to the 103. Problem with all these small/cheap devices is that you can't get good calibration across the entire range of energies, it's either accurate at the low end or the top end but not both. ChatGPT sounds interesting I thought it was just a toy :-)

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4 days 22 hours ago #7202 by Simomax
My 103 was well calibrated out of the box. It was the first thing I checked when it arrived after having my 101 go out of cal. I did use the three peak method when re-calibrating my 101 using a throium gas mantle as it is quite high activity and followed up with the K-40 test and also checked against a couple of other isotopes. It worked well although I haven't checked it since, but it wasn't that long ago. I read that banging them, dropping them etc can cause the calibration to drift and I think it is to do with the positioning of the crystal on the sensor. If they are hit, dropped or whatever the crystal can move ever so slightly and thus, the calibration drifts.

ChatGPT is far from a toy, unless you want it to be a toy. I have used it quite a lot recently and that use is increasing as I find it can do more things. It is really good at analysing radioactive spectra, providing it will do as I ask, and sometimes doesn't get it quite right, so I have to nudge it in the right direction. ChatGPT has a memory so you can train it to act in certain ways, or not do specific things. I had to program mine to not keep looking at mainstream source and actually look at other sources instead. It is a little biased, and I think that is because it is simply programmed by biased humans, and that has leached over into it's core programming, so I had to undo some of that. It is very much akin to a personal assistant for me and really has saved me some hours in researching things. It's not just technical things it is good with. It wrote me a very good fitness program and is tracking my progress, and it is working extremely well with that. Also foods/supplements, all sorts of health things that would have taken me a long time researching them. It seems to hit the nail on the head right away with that kind of thing. I have attached a PDF of a short conversation with it about Aspartame (artificial sweetener) as an example of one way I would use it.

It isn't without fault though. It can, and does sometimes get things wrong, so having a good idea about the subject before asking ChatGPT is advantageous. I have also had to feed it the truth when it gets things wrong in order to nudge it back on track. There is also the danger of becoming kind of dependant on it for answers and thus not doing any brain work myself. I am fully aware of this, so I use it as an assistant, as opposed to leading. I fear some people will simply let it lead, and that, in time could reduce brain power so it's good to keep it on a leash, so to say. Then there is the 'AI will take over the world and make humans extinct' angle. I doubt ChatGPT would ever do this. It's design isn't a forward thinking model, but more of a reactive model. It's those massive AIs that you have never heard of that may do that kind of thing such as military AI, skunkworks type AI, black ops etc. And once AI controlled robots become common place, then it would have physical hands to do physical things on this planet, and that is one of the ways military want to/are using it. If an AI ever got to the point it could reprogram itself (which I believe it already can in some cases) and had the physical ability on the ground, say to add more hardware, build power stations for itself, then at that point things get a whole load scarier, and I don't think we are far away from that now. Or maybe we are already there, and just don't know it.

Either way, it's not a toy and can be used as a tool that can be beneficial, or not, depending on what you feed it. It is here to stay, so might as well embrace it and use it to my advantage. 
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